I want to live in the Kingdom of God, wherein Justice and Fairness prevail.
Yep. Jw's do too. You have lot's in common with them. Is there a Kingdom Hall around. You can join.
Jeff
AK - Jeff
JoinedPosts by AK - Jeff
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70
My Facebook Page, "God is not divided" is not responded to.
by shechaiyah ini thought the topic of religion would be a great one for facebook.. wow, was i wrong about that.. http://www.facebook.com/pages/god-is-not-divided/112694992130588.
the only people are show any interest at all are catholics.. witnesses seem to avoid every venue where somebody else might show up.. zionists do likewise; but they have a different reason.. but, god yhvh is god of the whole earth, is my point.. anybody got any idea what i can do to stimulate godly conversation on my page?.
i'm tryin' to minister to the merely-confused as witnesses do out in service.. .
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AK - Jeff
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My Facebook Page, "God is not divided" is not responded to.
by shechaiyah ini thought the topic of religion would be a great one for facebook.. wow, was i wrong about that.. http://www.facebook.com/pages/god-is-not-divided/112694992130588.
the only people are show any interest at all are catholics.. witnesses seem to avoid every venue where somebody else might show up.. zionists do likewise; but they have a different reason.. but, god yhvh is god of the whole earth, is my point.. anybody got any idea what i can do to stimulate godly conversation on my page?.
i'm tryin' to minister to the merely-confused as witnesses do out in service.. .
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AK - Jeff
I cannot imagine giving any advice on how to 'reach' people who appear uninterested in your style of evangelism. Especially when you appear to be promoting a god without substance, proof of existence, and one utterly uninterested in the fate of the earth's intelligent life, not even interested enough to actually prove his own existence.
Why not preach to the Catholics who seem to be the only ones interested in your god for the moment? Noah would have [had he been real and not a metaphorical character that is].
Jeff
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Why Arguments and Debates on the Trinity are a Waste of Time
by AllTimeJeff inthis isn't meant to be a shit stirring topic, just a thought or two, a memory really, from my jw days.
because i know i have more experience then most on debating the veracity of the trinity..... there are two camps, people of faith, and people of math.. people of faith will always be more convinced of the trinity every day, because for the most part, the teachers of the trinity are very up front about the fact that it is a mystery.. so the more you point out how illogical it is, the more a mystery the trinity becomes, and thus, it also becomes more real.
awesome!
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AK - Jeff
I would be willing to extend this thinking beyond just a single theistic doctrine.
I think the 'mystery' element, the unprovable and illogical acceptance of deity/demon and spirit, is so pervasive among 'believers' that it is leading to eventual disaster for our species. Not only is mankind robbed of potential contributors to the 'real' problems of the world, but the zeal of those who think that rewards lay ahead for those who martyr themselves for God/Allah may indeed, in this technological era, leave our landscape looking like Hiroshima, and for the same reasons.
Sam Harris, in his book, The End of Faith, makes the point well, that somehow, a significant portion of our societies on the planet feel it acceptable, in fact noble, that we believe in beings [God/Angels/Demons], locations [Heaven/Hell/Paradise], and events [miracles/virgin births/resurrections] that have precisely zero evidence to support them. And we believe in Holy Writ that claims God/Allah as author, when the only 'evidence' for such assertions are those that come from within the writings themselves. He makes the interesting point in query, of a time future when our decedents might determine to believe that God authored the code for Windows 98, or that some film might be 'inspired' by God. When you think of it, much of our digital documents today would 'show up' the Bible/Koran for accuracy and technical 'correctness'.
We would absolutely 'loose it' if our pediatrician suggested that we accept some 14th century medical practice to cure melanoma in one of our children. Yet, with our belief systems, we reject any objective submission of the opinions/doctrines/theisms to critical thinking. We do not 'examine' the evidence for belief and faith - we just pin our hopes on something beyond the grave, instead of seeking to improve the only thing we are assured of - life in the here and now.
So, I think the title of the subject should be "Why Arguments and Debates on Faith are a Waste of Time". Objective and rational people accept what is evidenced and do not take up 'faith'. The faithful do not care about the lack of evidence no matter the effort we make to assist them.
Just my two shekels.
Jeff
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QUOTATIONS ABOUT RELIGION......FOR AND AGAINST...WELCOME YOUR THOUGHTS AND COMMENTS
by Pams girl inhello all, thought id spend an hour typing these quotations.......hope you find something you like, and welcome your thoughts and comments.
paula.. quotations about religion.
i still say a church steeple with a lightening rod shows a lack of confidence.
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AK - Jeff
Damn it. Lost my post.
Yes, I have his book. His words are fond to me, a relative new member of the atheist circle.
I believe that the world needs to pay heed. We are headed to oblivion if the religious fanaticism that has gripped our species for millennia continues. We cannot any longer afford to allow religion, and religious ideologies that remain unchanged in substance for thousands of years, proven unreliable in the midst of rational and scientific understanding, to rule our societal evolution. Both Christian [mark Oslo tragedy] and Muslim [mark 9-11 etc] zeal is but a step away from from something akin to Hiroshima, should these fanatics who believe that God inspired a book [as filled with inconsistencies as both the Bible and the Koran are] or inspires them to pass judgment on the 'sinners'. God cannot help us. We must help ourselves to a healthy awareness of the problem of religion and find a way to prevent the mass extinction of our species by those unwilling to accept fact over mythology.
[How did I get up on this soapbox? Walking away with a shy smile as I step down.]
Jeff
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QUOTATIONS ABOUT RELIGION......FOR AND AGAINST...WELCOME YOUR THOUGHTS AND COMMENTS
by Pams girl inhello all, thought id spend an hour typing these quotations.......hope you find something you like, and welcome your thoughts and comments.
paula.. quotations about religion.
i still say a church steeple with a lightening rod shows a lack of confidence.
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AK - Jeff
Another Harris quote if I might:
" Tell a devout Christian that his wife is cheating on him, or that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever."
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QUOTATIONS ABOUT RELIGION......FOR AND AGAINST...WELCOME YOUR THOUGHTS AND COMMENTS
by Pams girl inhello all, thought id spend an hour typing these quotations.......hope you find something you like, and welcome your thoughts and comments.
paula.. quotations about religion.
i still say a church steeple with a lightening rod shows a lack of confidence.
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AK - Jeff
I love Bertrand Russell's take in the final quote in your post.
May I share one of my favorites? This is from Sam Harris' book 'The End of Faith':
"Whatever their imagined source, the doctrines of modern religions are no more tenable than those which, for lack of adherents were cast upon the scrap heap of mythology millennia ago: for there is no more evidence to justify a belief in the literal existence of Yahweh and Satan than there was to keep Zeus perched upon his mountain throne or Poseidon churning the seas."
In fact, if I may add - it makes more sense to worship Zeus and tremble at Poseidon, for these God's are 'older' than the Judeo/Christian versions of God, if you track the roots. At least this is the argument that many of religion use about the Bible/God/Jesus - their relative age to that of our modern society should compell us to believe in them.
Jeff
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My great niece's wedding and xjws.......
by AK - Jeff init seems to me, by observation, that young people who leave the organization have much greater odds of reintegration into society in general than do us 'old fogies'.. yesterday i was privileged to officiate the wedding of my great niece, who is a former jw, disfellowshipped in her teens.
[i am legally ordained, though i am atheist.
] among the guests were at least 8 or 10 xjws, disfellowshipped mostly.
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AK - Jeff
It seems to me, by observation, that young people who leave the organization have much greater odds of reintegration into society in general than do us 'old fogies'.
Yesterday I was privileged to officiate the wedding of my great niece, who is a former Jw, disfellowshipped in her teens. [I am legally ordained, though I am atheist.] Among the guests were at least 8 or 10 xjws, disfellowshipped mostly. [There was probably 150 people there, so although the xjw's were a minority, they were a sizable minority.] The bride is mid-twenties, and most of the people to whom I refer are in that group, although a few of us were older, including the father of the bride. During the reception I had opportunity to speak to several of these young people, and found those discussions pleasingly refreshing. Of course, as we all know, Jehovah's Witnesses are not particularly interested in cultivation of those whom they have excommunicated, so young people seem to migrate to each other and are very adept at making new friends outside the closed ranks of those they had known as Jw's.
I was pleased with the growth of my own personal opinions as I spoke with them. These were people whom I would have judged as 'worldly', perhaps even 'wicked' when I was a Jw. I found them filled with life, hope, and great character. I had known most of these people before, when they were witness kids and I was the self-righteous servant who looked down my nose at their conduct. Now I understand that they were just wishing to 'find themselves', and they found themselves outside the organization. But they did not find themselves 'looking in', as the idiom goes. They have found themselves looking up, looking forward, and looking far wiser in my eyes than I would have honestly expected.
There were in attendance at least three active Jw's that I know of also - although it would be argued that those people were certainly not considered 'stellar' Witnesses by any who know them, and they only attended because the bride was family. It is interesting to note that the only 'rude', 'unchristian', behavior I observed was by the Witnesses, who all know me as the lovable local apostate. They avoided eye contact with me, would not speak to me, and in one case a sister brushed right by me rudely letting all know that she would not stand in the same circle with me - though she never said a word, it was understood.
I have 'married' several Jw couples when I was a Jw. Since leaving I have now officiated at three weddings - two were religious affairs. This one was totally non-religious by request of the couple, which is just fine with me. [God, I hate offering all that scriptural advice and prayers when I don't even believe any god is listening.] The ceremony was perhaps 10 minutes long, a unity sand ceremony, spoken vows, ring exchange. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am. I must say this was the best wedding I can recall.
But, the point I intended to make before I sidetracked myself was this: The Watchtower is driving it's youth away - not a new fact of course. These young people are better than survivors of a cult - they are living life with zest. They are good people who walk away wondering why they have been so mistreated. But unlike those of us who left much later in life, they are healing fast, learning to live, and they will spread the word about the horrors of the organization better than could be done with billboards and flyers. SO I SAY TO THOSE BROOKLYN BASTARDS - KEEP IT UP! YOU ARE DOING A GREATER FAVOR [along with some unfortunate pain] THAN YOU CAN EVER IMAGINE!
I am encouraged. No 'nation', political or religious, can stand for long when it practices genocide of it's hopeful youthful element. It may endure a while so doing, but the eventuality is that it will fall into disrepair and be abandoned. My experience with a small handful of those who were thrown to the 'world' is that they will do just fine.
I think there is hope in this, but not for the Watchtower.
Jeff
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What if Christainty is right?
by mankkeli ini was just wondering, what if afterall, christainity is right, what if there would be a ressurection, what if the heavenly hope is a valid aspiration god has set in place for faithful servants, what would be the hope of about 1.3million apostate dissidents who turned their back on the jw brand of christainity, where would they be?, some here seems to represent the anti-christ depicted in the bible, but what would be their hope, would god out of his abundant mercy shield us somehow and what would be the rationale behind his protection?.
life as we presently live it is confusing, the future as perceived is unpredictable, we may think our corpses are deemed to serve as manure, but whereas what if there is really life after death.
how would god judge those who seem to have spat on his face?, would he view us as mere victims of abundant hypocrisy in a confused world?.
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AK - Jeff
What if Poseidon rules the waves?
There have been literally millions of gods worshiped throughout history. As of this moment, not a single one has shown his face for verification. The danger of this sort of thinking is in the multitudes of facets found within religion. It seems, if you listen to those who claim to know [and you can find them on every street corner in most cities, or on any of ten-thousand discussion boards like this one], that unless you worship the correct god, in the correct manner, you are doomed anyway. Hell, if there is one thing that Christians can't agree on it is the SINGLE PROPER way to worship the god they claim to adore.
Even if Christianity is right - and if I had a million dollars to wager on that I would bet against it - then what particular version of god and doctrine does one pursue, in order to assure that he doesn't arrive at the pearly gates only to be kicked southward?
I will pass. If there actually happens to be a god, but that god is sooooo arrogant so as to kill everyone who is confused as to how to worship in a world filled with ways to worship it - well then so be it. Who wants to worship an asshole like that anyway? [Oh, damn - there I go spitting in his face again. Bad habit.]
Jeff
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Critical Thinking: Identifying False Logic
by Amazing1914 inwe understand how the watchtower society openly discouraged critical thinking.
they certainly used fallacious reasoning in their theological meanderings.
however, when we leave the jws, learning that we were duped, we can continue to fail to use good constructive critical thinking.
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AK - Jeff
marked for ref.
Thanx Jim.
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FYI: Something is going on in Brazil that's interesting
by AndersonsInfo inposted on www.christianwitnesses.com.
the federal public ministry at ceara, brazil, on july 14, 2011 filed a civil action against the religion of jehovah's witnesses in the 8th federal court for practicing religious discrimination against former members.
prosecutor nilce cunha rodrigues has taken on official representation of sebastian oliveira (ramos) who, after being expelled from the religion was discriminated against by colleagues, friends and relatives, including his mother, in accord with norms of the jehovahs witnesses who are headed by a governing body of the watchtower society.
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AK - Jeff
I think FF2002 and Steve2 have hit the nail here. It will simply be a matter of how they 'frame' the matter to accomplish the same thing.
They have done this very well for decades with the flag salute, voting, military training and service. They change the approach to assure that they avoid litigation, but accomplish the ends to which they have always striven.
Still, with enough international pressure, cases like this one might have an eventual impact on the membership. They might 'use' the official position to do what their conscience has probably been instructing them to do all along - and show love and consideration to family members. When confronted by their choice, they will be able to fall back to the 'official position' stated wherever it is recorded.
This is not a flood, but it might be a small pinhole in the dike.
Jeff